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Post by alexannn on Nov 6, 2009 23:08:48 GMT
It's nice to know I am not alone in the feeling that it is difficult to watch Gareth's character die again. I am still not over Ianto. From the start of the whole "kill yourself" plot I was just thinking, oh no, not again.
I did enjoy it. I enjoyed the suspense and the brilliant acting. However, I believe that the ending was a bit predictable and that it started stronger than it finished.
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Post by vorpatril on Nov 7, 2009 3:11:10 GMT
This is convincing me that webisodes are not the way to do thrillers. Maybe it could work in a longer series but here it gave too little plot and too much time between episodes to ponder the plot holes. If it were a short that could be watched all in one go I wouldn't have time to sit here and think "Wait, why did they do that?" for every four or five minutes of action.
Here I'm wondering about the gap between what we're told and what we're shown. Through Twitter we learned that Dunbar and Weinberg respect Matheson and consider him a brilliant detective. We know that Lyndon trusts Matheson. Then we never actually see why they feel that way towards him. What we see is a man who lets a handcuffed suspect wind him up to the point where he never even questions how his death is going to save his daughter. That's not a good reaction for a detective. The ending doesn't have any real suspense to it. It just leaves me thinking Matheson is a bit of an idiot and his coworkers are none too bright for relying on him.
This was an interesting experiment but I wouldn't call it a success.
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Post by diedye on Nov 7, 2009 3:20:25 GMT
That's it?! Well, that was a waste of my time... all that build-up in Twitter for THIS?! Now I'm sorry I recommended this to my friends to watch... what a let-down... I sure won't be wasting any of my money on any forthcoming DVD or any of my time on any possible future for this venture. I have to be honest, Gareth was the only thing attracting me to do this and to have the best about it be once again laid to waste... I just don't get it... but then again, what more should I expect from those involved with CoE... I should've known... Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
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Post by pearl on Nov 7, 2009 6:10:12 GMT
Subtlescience, I was waiting for your thoughts on this. As you say the production values were great and Gareth's acting was beyond good. But the plot holes were awful.
I appreciate they only had a limited budget and time to film the series, but us viewers could work out how to avoid such inconsistencies.
I hope that this has been a way to show off Gareth's amazing acting abilities to film and television producers.
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Post by sfinx on Nov 7, 2009 7:09:47 GMT
I think it was a suitable ending. Watching the little girl run away without knowing the tragedy did make it more horrible ,with the body of her father the background. Terrible and very well done. Make some more please?
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Post by bananas on Nov 7, 2009 8:37:55 GMT
I've been thinking about what it was that made the final episode unsatisfying... Ultimately I think it was the fact that Boylan was in control throughout the series - he'd worked out how everyone would act and they did exactly what he expected. Boylan's view of the world was never challenged. I had been hoping that Matheson would say no and we could see how Boylan would cope with that, possibly even with Boylan regaining control. A bit of a power play would at least have stopped the police from looking inadequate.
It occured to me this morning that I'd have enjoyed the conclusion more if it had possible to been achieve something along the same lines as Sleuth, where it's not always clear as to who holds the control.
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Post by toriarose on Nov 7, 2009 8:43:18 GMT
Brilliant! Blood's still pounding in my ears. We were all misdirected beautifully (nothing is what it seems) - or maybe it was wishful thinking on Torchwood fans parts - into thinking that this was all about Matheson/Gareth. But actually its all been about the introduction of a new monster killer (like Hannibal Lecter). He's already setting up a new game with Taylor (nice to meet him at last) as he's being taken away. I have to say that Lyndon is a real hard case - she managed to stay clinical throughout. Can't wait to see where the sequel takes us.
On a side note - watching Gareth on telly is getting a bit like watching Leo DiCaprio in a movie. There was a time when every movie I seemed to watch with Leo in he died!
Unless, of course, the cops are playing a game, too, and Matheson's not dead . . .
Well done all - can't wait to see what happens next . . .
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Post by subtlescience on Nov 7, 2009 11:37:56 GMT
I agree--in thinking over G#9, what I realized was that the 'all's not what it seems' twist to this was that the audience was supposed to identify with Boylan, even possibly identify with his killings.
The purpose of the series was the shocking deaths, nothing more. In this, it was quite similar to CoE; Moran obviously has learned from the mistakes of CoE. Ianto was too well known and too liked by long-term TW viewers for his death to be effectively enjoyable; Steven's was an improvement, as there was little to no reason to care about him, to distract from the desired shock. Unfortuntaely, however, it was overshadowed by Ianto's death.
G#9 fixed that--too short for any deep attachment to the characters...although casting GDL was a mistake, since he can make a fence post seem human in less than three minutes. Better to have used someone more of the caliber of the actress playing the dull, flat Lyndon.
First the audience got to witness the detectives' reaction to watching a girl ripped apart, live on camera. Shocking, but, as Boylan points out--not satisfying, because it's not firsthand. Matheson's death improves matters: the audience gets to watch directly, the better to get the voyeuristic pleasure of watching him suffer and die. The audience is placed in the role of Boylan, to get that cheap thrill of the shocking death of a meaningless stranger. And then Boylan shares his final critique with the audience: that wasn't as fun as doing it himself.
The point of the characters and the plot was merely to set up the scenarios of the deaths for the audience to watch; a longer series was not necessary for that. Or even a wise approach--because too much information would distract the audience from the main event: the enjoyment of being thrilled by brutal killings. It is sick--a word that's been thrown around LJ, FB, and Twitter as actually a compliment to Moran: clearly, he's hit an intended audience with his formula writing.
And the final scene underscores Boylan as the hero: he beat the cops. Of course, he's under arrest, but that's meaningless: he happily threatens a cop's wife, promising more, future brutality (there is no need to explain the sudden serial killer shift from children to women--that's a plot detail that can be safely tossed aside); he also effectively erased any chance of Matheson's being viewed as a "dead hero" by his comments to the other cops....who accept Boylan's estimation of Matheson by ignoring the corpse--a perfunctory, ineffective check of the pulse is the most attention Matheson gets. Because Boylan is the star and hero of this script.
At least G#9 establishes that this is what Moran writes. His fans are assured they will get what they need, and others are now forewarned: CoE and G#9 are the templates--this is the plot he writes. Take it or leave it.
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Alegria
Rookie
So, What about us? What about love? What about saying that we'll never give up?
Posts: 25
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Post by Alegria on Nov 7, 2009 12:53:59 GMT
G#9 fixed that--too short for any deep attachment to the characters... Oh, I can attache to a character in less then three minutes when the character is good. Did so with GN9 too. although casting GDL was a mistake, since he can make a fence post seem human in less than three minutes. Haha, I loved that one. And it's so true.
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Post by vorpatril on Nov 7, 2009 21:42:06 GMT
I agree. That's what leaves me feeling like it's hollow more than the fact that everything is "Nothing is what it seems" looks like in this case it means "Everything is how it appears on the surface. Weren't expecting that, were you?" That's why I'd compare this more to "Countrycide" than CoE. I know it wasn't written by James Moran but the basic idea seems to be the same. In "Countrycide" the explanation for the brutal killings is "It made me happy." The whole point of the episode is to have gruesome bodies and "creepy" antagonists who aren't aliens. I got exactly the same feeling when Boylan started describing how much more satisfying it was convincing Matheson to kill himself than tearing little girls apart. At least CoE tried to be something more than that. It thought it had ideas about class warfare, government and responsibility.
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Post by subtlescience on Nov 8, 2009 0:30:32 GMT
"Countrycide" at least had major, important character development--starting with the bickering amongst the TW team members and ending with realizations about their importances to each other and insights into themselves. Tosh's backbone of pure steel, Ianto's willingness to sacrifice himself, Jack's fierce defense of his TW 'family'....and so on. The plot may have been standard horror--but the characterizations were not neglected.
In CoE, the so-called "development" of the Jack/Ianto "love story" and, in G#9, Matheson's "journey" were nothing but dead-stop dead ends. Literally. But, then again, CoE and G#9 weren't really about characters at all--just situations. Fine if that's what a viewer is looking for, but a bit aggravating when the show is actually not about what's advertised on the tin, as it were, before broadcast.
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Post by vorpatril on Nov 8, 2009 3:54:54 GMT
*shrugs* I didn't like "Countrycide" for multiple character reasons but those have more to do with not liking where the characterization went. For example, it's where I stopped liking Gwen. I found all those revelations pointless in the face of the mind boggling levels of incompetence that got them there. Owen leaving the keys in the SUV, failure to stand aside when opening doors to potential hostile situations, the two who show the least field training being the ones farthest away from medical help and how easily Tosh and Ianto were captured. These are supposed to be professional alien hunters. Not that they don't display that kind of behavior in other episodes but it isn't usually so concentrated.
I like Jack. I like Ianto. I have never liked Jack/Ianto. It has never made sense to me. How did Ianto go from hating Jack for killing Lisa to believing that Jack needs him badly enough that he's willing to shoot Owen? When is this change made? I know some of this is me rather than the writers but any line of reasoning that leads back to "The power of plot compelled them!" jolts me out of the story. If it happens too often it ruins a story for me. CoE ignores the rules of the universe it's in so thoroughly that dead ending a character is easy for me to ignore. It had a few interesting ideas rattling around in it. The aliens were cool. The other stuff was covered better in Quatermass and The White Plague.
I get angry about CoE but "Countrycide" and G#9 I just feel annoyed and disappointed. There's no real reason for all the death and destruction. When I rewatch episodes now that I've seen the finale it's hard to be scared of Boylan. It's like trying to be afraid that a pink elephant is going to come into my room and sit on me while I'm asleep. There's no reason for what he's doing beyond having fun. The premise itself is pointless. I feel the same way about cannibalistic hillbillies. It's not scary, it's silly. If the point is that "the worst monsters walk on two legs and have mothers who love them" then there are better ways to accomplish it than unreasoning psychos or hillbillies that eat people. CoE comes closer with the behavior of the government even if I think they underestimated the vanity of politicians.
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Post by pearl on Nov 8, 2009 6:25:11 GMT
Although I "enjoyed" the series, I don't really like Joe Absolom so I am unlikely to watch a continuation of the story, which is definitely possible.
I thought the idea of a web series, plus the build up on Twitter was brilliant. The acting of Gareth David-Lloyd was outstanding. Joe Absolom's acting was, for me, adequate. The plot did have holes in it which could be resolved with a longer format.
I hope that Gareth gets a story with a happy ending.
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Post by subtlescience on Nov 8, 2009 12:40:08 GMT
I thought Absolom was excellent--up until the point that he shouted at Matheson to "do it!" That didn't fit with the previous cold snake depiction: I preferred the hypnotically weird, off kilter and inappropriate emotions--or lack thereof. But a little of that goes a long way, and I simply didn't find Boylan interesting enough to want to watch any further episodes of Crazy Man in the Can. On the other hand, GDL took everyone to school. In 20 minutes--minus the absurd suicide in the plot--he made me want to watch an entire TV series about Matheson. While I don't care about Boylan or he got that weird and perverted, or what his next great plan is as he switches his interest randomly to adult women, I really did want to know more about Matheson. However, I've no interest in seeing Matheson's past any more--not with knowing that he ends up slumped against the wall, a sad failure ignored by his colleagues. So--I'm rather glad G#9 is over; I know now that Moran's work is pretty much always going to be the same sort of thing, which I can avoid; and, as always, I look forward to seeing other work from GDL. It would extraordinary to see him play a character who is not killed by a blatant, gaping plot hole.
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Post by pearl on Nov 8, 2009 14:34:21 GMT
Again I am in complete agreement with you, SS. I have a feeling that The Bill episode might be less traumatic for him. Here is a link for the Digitsal Spy article. The Bill
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